Debate: Duty to abort


Subdebate: Argument from Neo-Liberalism


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Email: illlogic@argumentclinic.net

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Subdebate Description:

Does starting a new life in the Western world necessarily entail inflicting harm on people in the second and third world?

Ill Logic

Francois Tremblay, from the parent debate:

"
Any child brought into this world as a white Western person will, by virtue of eir's birth, live a higher lifestyle which is dependent on the massive exploitation of the second and third world. The restructuring of nations' economies brought about by neo-liberalist policies which suck second and third world production for Western consumption destroy health care and welfare systems, force the export of local food which creates famines, creates more industrial growth which generates pollution, the number one cause of death around the world, and so on. Therefore, starting a new life in the Western world necessarily entails inflicting harm on other people (not to mention all the people in one's own society who also have to risk harm for that society to keep functioning).
"

Ken, please respond to this point here.




Francois Tremblay

I just want to add here that I actually wanted to make this an argument about social consent, but I forgot to do so. I have a further argument, which is that beyond the harm caused by new Western lives, we, the people living in Western societies, also do not consent to the addition and burden of new human lives in our societies, which we have to pay for and deal with. We do not consent to this burden and have basically no control over it, and yet it is imposed on us based on other people's decisions.




Ken

As for the first argument as stated, yes, this exploitation is a bad thing, however, isn’t up to us to help stop it? A family can also choose products that are not made in the third world in order to protest this injustice.

Regarding the secondary addition, despite the rise in population our standard of living has also risen and so it seems that more people doesn’t automatically spell doom. To give an example, we are in an age of prosperity, however, our unfortunate financial crisis was created by the rich, not people having families, and this seems to be the general theme throughout history. Governments are the problem, not families, so let’s get rid of government instead.

I also see no reason why contracts cannot be written up limiting the number of children a family can have in a given society. Those that want to live under that rule can do so. Those can choose not to can live in other communities.

Of course, there is a tipping point, but science is quickly progressing creating new technologies for food production (genetically modified food as one example) and searching for other earth-like worlds that can sustain human life in the event that this world becomes overcrowded.




Francois Tremblay

The argument that one can choose products and escape exploiting others is not really valid if you consider the fact that any given person's production is dependent on everyone else's production. More specifically in this case, raw materials still have to come from somewhere, the metals used to make the machines have to come from somewhere, the workers' food and clothes have to come from somewhere, and so on and so forth. The fact is that we really have no idea how much exploitation is inherent in any given consumer product, and checking the "made in" tag is only an indication of where the finished product comes from, not all the other steps of the way.

I don't think my second argument was clear, because I don't really see the relation between your objection and what I said. You are not addressing the fact that new human lives in our society imposes a burden on you and me personally. This has nothing to do with government or financial crises, and would be true even if government or financial crises did not exist (although of course life as a whole would be much easier, of course, more human lives would still impose a burden on everyone).




Ill Logic

Hey, I apologize for not going through this and the other subdebate yet. I will try for this weekend, but the next week is going to tie me up quite a bit. After that I will be much more on top of this.