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Ill Logic
6:07 a.m. jan 12, 2009

This debate is between Jose and Chance Yohman. Chance's political leanings are in the realm of libertarian/anarchist/independent, and will argue in favor of ending government prohibition on drug sale and use, and Jose, who describes himself as "other", will argue to keep drugs illegal.

I should note for the sake of the readers that I, the mediator, am a libertarian myself, so I would tend to side with Chance. I know this is not ideal, but I will do my best to deal with both debaters equally. If either of you believes I am being biased, please say so outloud. My goal is to get both sides to agree to every decision I make, so hopefully bias won't come into play.

We should have a lively debate, and let disagreements form naturally, even if it may seem a little off-topic. As long as you let me do the "organization" aspects, which is my job.

With that said, have at it. I will I leave it to Chance to make his first argument, since he is the one proposing a change to the status quo.

Chance Yohman
8:11 a.m. jan 12, 2009

Yes! There are many ways to argue this, but I will illuminate the financial burden the drug war represents on the US.
For starters, take the recent paper by Jeff Miron from Harvard. He estimates we could save $44 billion a year by legalizing drugs today, http://is.gd/fvFZ- . Now this may seem like a small figure in comparison to financial bailouts, but we have to start somewhere. Why not here?

Jose
12:04 a.m. jan 15, 2009

There is little to be revealed, and little sense in arguing the point made. Governments, like all entities, should live within their means or be faced with consequences. Although the true cause of this particular financial crisis might be up for debate, it would be quite incorrect to state that it was caused by regulations on drug use and drug trafficking.

That said, it cannot be discounted that the money you have is influential on the products and services you will purchase. What can be argued, however, is the importance of what it is you choose not to purchase in such a scenario. It's cheaper to not have car insurance than it is to have it, but it is not the smartest of options, nor the legal one.

Ill Logic
7:44 a.m. jan 15, 2009

I know that there are many more aspects to this debate than this. Chance, I think you're right not to go too far into detail right away, but I think that you should give a more complete explanation for why you are for legalizing drugs. You don't have to go into any depth in what you list, I just want the reasons out there so Jose gets a chance to respond to the ones he disagrees with, and we can see where the disagreement lies. So, Chance, please give a brief summary, but of your whole argument.

Chance Yohman
9:25 a.m. jan 15, 2009

Reasons for legalizing drugs:

1) No one, other than myself, has the right to tell me what I can and can not put into my body. The situation is different with kids, I think, where a parent can assert their right to a degree.

2) While the Drug War is not to blame for the financial crisis directly. It is a policy in a line of policies that could aid in the collapse of the US. Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare, imperialistic wars, drug wars, and now the financial bailouts are all steps towards complete and utter fiscal irresponsibility (if we're not already there). Legalize drugs, stop the drug wars, and maybe we can turn America around. Instead of saying "change", we could really mean it.

Jose
12:52 a.m. jan 21, 2009

1) Surely you are not claiming that you hold yourself outside of the reach of the law. The issue seems to be that you do not believe that it is correct to regulate what can be put in your body - a point which I believe is worth debating.

On its surface, that basic principle seems fair, maybe even common sense to most. However, there is much more to that topic. The fundamental idea that members of a social collective share a duty to uphold and obey its laws is a primitive one, and arguably is part of human nature. By accepting the idea of citizenship one cannot detach themselves from the implicit contract that is created with the society from which he or she is a part. By using roads, hospitals, and even cash you are accepting the idea that you are part of a society. Therefore you must also accept the fact that you have to act in a manner deemed acceptable by the other members of society - members who contributed to the creation of the products and services you use every day. You cannot choose to benefit from a society and refuse to accept its laws.

There is a fundamental belief that drugs, especially the stronger varieties, can bring upon a social blight. This might not be apparent everywhere, but conditions outside of your own scope might be quite different. Drug cartels in foreign states might be creating havoc within their own societies, and might be creating situations that governments might consider unacceptable.

Let me answer plainly your point:
"No one, other than myself, has the right to tell me what I can and can not put into my body."
- The government certainly has the right to tell you that you cannot put atom bombs into your body, because those are clearly illegal. I obviously see the difference in how atom bombs can be considered more illegal than drugs. But I am still waiting on the details of how drugs are less illegal than anything else.

2) There was quite a bit stated in this paragraph, but I was unable to see an actual reason why restricting the trafficking and consumption of drugs is fundamentally flawed, and would contribute to the "collapse of the US."

Chance Yohman
9:09 a.m. jan 21, 2009

My body is outside of the law. The law is a construct of people in power. I merely play along when I need to avoid draconian punishment by those who see themselves in control.

If mandatory compliance to a social contract is even close to true, why did people ignore Prohibition? Why did the government relent?

Where is the proof that drugs produce a social blight? It's undeniable drug use is prevalent in American society. Where is the moral decay? The moral decay these days comes from overspending our means. Granted this may be caused by drugs, but I think it's the fact that humans are intrinsically greedy.

It is also not my opinion that we should delay our legalization issues, because of drug cartel issues in other countries. Drug cartels exist because of the impotence of governments to allow markets for drugs to develop. It is the business of countries where these cartels exist for the citizens to deal with them, not the US's. Unless you think we should invade Colombia like Iraq only to let it fall to other corrupt individuals such as Iran or other drug cartels.

Also, if the US legalized drugs, then we could trade with cartels. We could possibly effect changes by placing moral obligations (such as stop killing) in our contracts with them. Why not try it? The way we do it fails now. What is your alternative?

Drugs are illegal now. Look, if a menacing gang came up to you on the street and told you clothes were illegal, then would you take off your clothes? The US is like a menacing gang with lots of rules. When they really feel the need to enforce a certain rule, then they do it. Even if there is flawed rationale for it.

Maybe legalization is too revolutionary. Why not a dialogue like this? Unfortunately, our current president gives me no hope:

Currently in the lead:
"Will you consider legalizing marijuana so that the government can regulate it, tax it, put age limits on it, and create millions of new jobs and create a billion dollar industry right here in the U.S.?"
S. Man, Denton

President-elect Obama is not in favor of the legalization of marijuana.
Transition Team, Washington, D.C.

http://is.gd/bi2i-

Unfortunately, drug opponents are so set in their way, they can't even see that most Americans want a dialogue on this. We tout Democracy, but when faced with the obvious outside of the polling place, we shy away. Drug legalization will not be achieved through government. Pro-drug people will take it just like they have openly for the past 50 years.

The drug laws of this country are flawed like many laws of this country. They waste money on a "problem" that is not going away. While making drugs illegal alone is not going to take this country down, it will be one of the many dominoes that will play a part. Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare, Unemployment, Financial Bailouts, Earmarks, have and will damn this country.

Ill Logic
10:57 p.m. feb 16, 2009

Ok, getting interesting so far. I'm going to ask that you both refrain from posting for the moment. I'm going to consider what's been said so far and try to organize it a little, so we can stay on target.

Stay tuned!

EDIT: Moved all the stance clarifications below into a sub-debate for ease of reading.

Spawned Subdebates:
Should Drugs be legalized in the United States? - Stance Clarifications. ---->

Ill Logic
10:59 p.m. feb 16, 2009

To summarize the stance clarification (the above subdebate), we all agreed that this debate boils down to these three issues:

1) Are drugs a social blight? Jose, I'm assuming that this includes your point about the cartels.

2) Is it morally acceptable for government to regulate the actions of individuals which do not infringe rights of others, in order to prevent a social blight?

3) Is drug prohibition a significant financial burden? You both agree that other things cause a bigger burden than drug prohibition, but Chance believes that the drug war is still a significant contributing factor.

Anything not mentioned, we agreed wasn't relevant to the discussion.

And thus we split our debate.

Spawned Subdebates:
Are drugs a social blight? ---->
Is it morally acceptable for government to regulate the actions of individuals which do not infringe rights of others, in order to prevent a social blight? ---->
Is drug prohibition a significant financial burden? ---->